One of the more nonsensical statements thrown out by pro-lifers is “how would you feel if your mother had aborted you?” Sometimes I think they watched It’s A Wonderful Life or Touched By An Angel too many times, thinking of angels hovering benevolently by as they show someone just how horrible the world would be had they not been born. There are those who even term themselves “abortion survivors” just because at one time it was slipped to them that their mothers had considered abortion.
I guess that makes me a survivor too.
I am the youngest of four children. My brother, the eldest, was a “honeymoon surprise,” born roughly nine months and two weeks after my parents’ wedding. My oldest sister arrived a little less then eighteen months later. My other sister was born almost exactly two years later. My parents told a few people that three was plenty, and precautions were taken. Two years passed, but around Christmas 1965 my mother started feeling sick. She learned that she was pregnant on New Year’s Eve day. She wasn’t happy about it. Neither was my father. They were already struggling to provide for three kids. My dad worked nights as well as having a side business fixing TVs, and my mother, a nurse, had been making plans to return to work. But things just … carried on, and I was born in September (four weeks late for those doing the math).
I have heard indirectly from some family members that my mother did consider aborting me. After all, we only lived fifty miles from New York City. A bus trip, some money changing hands, telling my dad she’d miscarried … no one would have been the wiser. We were Catholic, though, which probably stayed her hand (although she was not so Catholic that she didn’t believe in birth control; I remember finding her pills in her purse when I was about six). I have few regrets in life, but one is that I never had an adult conversation with my mother. I was twelve when she died, just beginning the journey into adolescence. We’d skirted some issues and I can remember her honesty. Then again, if she’d remained alive I’m positive my life would have taken a very different turn. Was my mother pro-choice? Again, I don’t know. She was not a judgemental person, I know that much. When one of my cousins came out as gay in the mid-seventies and other members of the family barred their doors to him (including his own mother) Mom made sure our door was open to him and his boyfriend and furiously shouted anyone down who denigrated him.
Do I feel like I should be grateful to my mother, as the pro-lifers believe, for choosing not to abort me? No—because it was her choice and hers alone. I’m pretty sure the world would have kept turning should I not have been born. A couple of people have picked up on the fact that I’ve mentioned that my family doesn’t know about INS and take that as some sort of shame I have about the site. It has nothing to do with that. My mother’s death literally tore my family apart, and nearly twenty-eight years later the scar is still sore and thin-skinned. We don’t talk about a lot of things, so a rousing abortion discussion is probably not in the cards. I would wager it’s not a hot topic of conversation at anyone’s family gathering unless your family is the sort who loves a good political discussion as some do. I suppose if I choose to advance INS they’ll know, but I’m generally considered the weirdo of the family anyway for a variety of reasons so I don’t think it’d come as that huge a shock.
Then, of course, we have those wonderful caring individuals who will probably read this and send me e-mail saying “your mother should have aborted you!” (actually I’ve already gotten a couple) So what if she had? Then someone else would have come up with the INS idea and you’d be sending them hate mail. And I bet their name would be easier to spell than mine.
Good points. I wonder how many people ask them “how would you feel if your mother had become a nun/stayed a virgin longer/waited until marriage/not been raped/etc. instead of having you?” (or for that matter, “how would you feel if your father had become a priest/stayed a virgin longer/waited until marriage/not raped/etc. instead of having you?”).
That`s really awful, Webmaster, about your family disintegrating after your mother`s death.
I know I wasn`t an accident, because my parents said they got married and had kids right away so my father wouldn`t get drafted after he dropped out of grad school and lost his student deferrment. I was the dependent who kept my dad out of ‘Nam — born right around the time you were conceived, coincidentally.
A related theme to this is something pro-lifers keep saying to me: they insist I should never tell my kids that I would abort subsequent pregnancies, because this will give them “survivor`s guilt,” and make them realize that I would have aborted them, too, under certain circumstances.
My mother is extremely pro-choice, so I actually feel a lot better knowing that she could have aborted me, so that I was actually truely wanted.
Mum only wanted 2 kids, she’s only got two. She says she would have had an abortion if there had been any more and it really doesn’t bother me.
Anymore that it bothers her that both her daughters have had abortions.
Dealing in ‘what if’ is counterproductive. The whole world won’t end if I hadn’t have been born.
Very moving blog there Patricia, thanks for that.
I was planned, but my younger sister sure as heck wasn’t. Big whoop. My mom miscarried once, too. And she used the pill for years, flushing countless potential sisters down the toilet. WHAT ABOUT MY OTHER SIBLINGS!? Why do only the aborted babies get the what-if treatment?
Jesus, I should be mourning the loss of, like, 50 potential children. All I had to do was have sex during ovulation 49 times, and not abort once. Woe is me!
Just wanted to say thank you!!
Your blog is constantly very well-written and extremely intelligent.
I admire the way you make your views known and how you have provided an outlet for pro-choicers and women who have had abortions to share their own stories.
Patricia, Despite our strongly held differences, I’m grateful your Mom chose life, for each of us has a very unique gift and perspective to offer the world. Sure “the world would keep turning” had you not been born, but it would be different without you and the impact you are leaving behind you.
I too am an abortion survivor, whose parents were unmarried college students in a big city, forced to quit school, give up their dreams and come back to small home town America in shame.
My Mom is very pro-choice; our relationship is quite strained and sadly there isn’t any significant interest in her grandchildren. There is much to whine about in my childhood and even my current parent-daughter relations (even at 43 years old!), but I am thankful my parents chose to give me life, if for nothing else, my three children would not be here.
I have add numerous “adult conversations” with my Mom, but unfortunately, with dialogue, our differences are only more clearly evident. From what you have written about her, I think I would have liked your Mom, and interestingly, you and my mother would likely be instant “soul-sisters”.
Thanks for sharing such a personal story Patricia. You are a bright individual whom I enjoy reading.
Screamapillette,
Why do you think your mother using the pill caused 50 embryos to be flushed down the toilet?
There are no objective scientific studies (at least which I’ve seen) to show that normal birth control pills prevent the implantation of a human embryo.
Actually, not using any form of contraception results in far more discarded zygotes going down the toilet.
Which is part of the reason I LOVE my IUD so much, no more zygotes out of this woman!
It’s something that MY mother supports me in – my desire to remain childfree. However, my mother-in-law sees it as an immense betrayal that I’m taking such actions deliberately to not give her grandchildren.
But, that is her issue to work out, not mine.
“My mom miscarried once, too. And she used the pill for years, flushing countless potential sisters down the toilet. WHAT ABOUT MY OTHER SIBLINGS!? Why do only the aborted babies get the what-if treatment?”
My mom said that when she was a girl some of the locals did give the what-if treatment to all potential babies and said girls should have sex right after menarche for that reason. Fortunately, her parents didn’t agree and allowed her to postpone sex.
“I too am an abortion survivor, whose parents were unmarried college students in a big city…”
That makes you a premarital virginity survivor as much as it makes you an abortion survivor. Are you grateful that they had premarital sex instead of not having you?
“Actually, not using any form of contraception results in far more discarded zygotes going down the toilet.”
Are you talking about the early-miscarriage rate here?
“It’s something that MY mother supports me in – my desire to remain childfree. However, my mother-in-law sees it as an immense betrayal that I’m taking such actions deliberately to not give her grandchildren.”
If she wants to make more babies then she should go find someone willing to help her do it instead of bugging you and your husband to do it for her.
“abortion survivor”?????
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
My oldest son’s parents were unmarried college students when he was born.
He’s not an ‘abortion survivor’ he’s a young man. Who’s going off to college himself this fall. still unmarried, too.
WOOHOO!
Can we nominate ‘abortion survivor’ for the drama queen phrase of the month?
“abortion survivor”… yeah that one got me scratchin’ my head as well. I laughed but I laugh most of the time when I go into this blog and read the anti-choice posts. Actually I have to down several cold beers before I can read any of that bullshit. Then I get to laugh even harder and that’s good; life is good.
I will second kitsunekaze’s nomination for that term to be the d.q. phrase of the month. It’s official; can we have a vote now?
Oh yes and keeping in line with webmaster’s article; I was a boo-boo. My sister is 8 years older than me. When my Mom became pregnant with me she was quite bummed out. She was in a crappy marriage and didn’t want anything to do with having another baby. This was back in the 50′s however; she was raised in a family whose faith was Eastern Christianity, the daughter of immigrants…so aborting was out of the question. Mom was not a happy camper as she raised me….she often ignored me and there was “no love, baby”. As we both aged our relationship improved so that was cool. If she had found a way to have an abortion instead of giving birth to me…then…BLANK PAGE. Hah.
Damn it, I want to be an abortion survivor! I could rock that title. Whoa is me for being planned! ;)
Jivin-
Birth control pills are abortive according the the manufacturers and doctors. Read the package insert or pull out a Physician’s Desk Reference. It’s a fact, only contested by prolifers that have a vested interest in not beleiving it’s true: either because they want to keep using the pill without guilt or because they’ve used the pill in the past and don’t want to beleive they’ve taken part in something they morally abhor.
Randy Alcorn was one such person and dismissed this fact much like you do, until he couldn’t deny the facts anymore. Since he was so adamantly pro-pill, I would consider his research unbiased. Here is a condensed version.
Well, I wasn’t planned, but I was certainly wanted. I’ll call myself an “abstinence survivor.”
“Can we nominate ‘abortion survivor’ for the drama queen phrase of the month?”
Count me in!
“Birth control pills are abortive according the the manufacturers and doctors.”
No, View, hormonal contraception NEVER causes abortions. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. If there is no implantation, there can be no pregnancy.
Those who believe each human life begins at conception would see this function not as a contraceptive, but an abortifacient.
And those of us who believe pregnancy starts at implantation DON’T believe it’s in any way an abortifacient. So it’s really a matter of morals and not science.
Having said that, if any doctor had refused to prescribe me the pill because if his morals I would have sued. Simply because the conditions I have can only be regulated by hormones and there are no other options. So his morals would have resulted in me being in MORE pain, and no physician worth their license will take an action that makes something worse.
And frankly, if a few unsentient zygotes get chopped up by my IUD so I can live a life with reduced pain, then I consider that fair. It’s easy to moralise when it’s not you screaming in agony each and every month.
Also, no, I don’t consider myself an ‘abortion survivor’ anymore than I consider myself a ‘blowjob survivor’. If Mum had given Dad head that night instead of shagging then I still wouldn’t be here.
Abortion survivor indeed.
“Blowjob survivor” – ROFLMAO! Frelling brilliant, CommanderD!! I’m going to have a tee-shirt made
But I’ll have to disagree with you, CommanderD, regarding pregnancy starting at implantation being a “belief.” It’s scientific fact. But, of course, we all know that forced-birthers have their own special pseudoscience. Anything they can grasp at to guilt women into gestating unwanted embryos.
I`m wondering here of an interesting side-argument is brewing between J., our favorite young white male Christian prolifer (and yet defends the pill), and View, whose link concludes with this gem:
“The Pill is used by about fourteen million American women each year and sixty million women internationally. Thus, even an infinitesimally low portion (say one-hundredth of one percent) of 780 million Pill cycles per year globally could represent tens of thousands of unborn children lost to this form of chemical abortion annually. How many young lives have to be jeopardized for prolife believers to question the ethics of using the Pill? This is an issue with profound moral implications for those believing we are called to protect the lives of children.”
J.? Do you have a response?
(The collective pro-choice response can be summarized as, “Zzzzzzzz…..”)
“The Pill is used by about fourteen million American women each year and sixty million women internationally. Thus, even an infinitesimally low portion (say one-hundredth of one percent) of 780 million Pill cycles per year globally could represent tens of thousands of unborn children lost to this form of chemical abortion annually. How many young lives have to be jeopardized for prolife believers to question the ethics of using the Pill? This is an issue with profound moral implications for those believing we are called to protect the lives of children.”
*rolls eyes* Can these people get any more loony?!
Welcome back, Ruthie, we missed you! :)
I’m new to the blog..So take it easy on me. =) I’ve read this blog ever since it started, but just now decided to post.
Anyway, I’m very sorry Patricia for all your family trouble over the years.
I’m an only child, first grandchild on both my Father and Mother’s side, so needless to say, I was about as spoiled as they come. Although, I was and still am a very respectful, open-minded person.
I can remember when I was around 10 years old, and my Mom and Dad were talking about having another baby, I burst into tears screaming about how it would ruin our perfect family. Then I remember her going for a doctors appointment and then coming home and she said she had her tubes tied.
Well, nothing else was ever mentioned about it. My senior year of high school, I started researching abortion and I decided to do my term paper on it. As the years progressed the subject became more and more fascinating to me, and I guess you could say I am a bit obsessed with it.
A couple of days ago I was sitting at work thinking about things, and that’s when I remembered my Dad and Mom having that thought of another baby, so I phoned my Mom and asked her what ever happened do that idea. At first she was hesitant – then I just asked her flat out if she had an abortion. Of course she said no, but it was the type of ‘no’ that you knew she was lying. I often wonder if she really did have an abortion, was it because I screamed when they told me they were having another baby? Probably. I guess she basically left the choice up to me rather than her. After all, mothers are supposed to look after their already born children, and what is best for them if they are wanting to make something of themselves at a later age.
Anyway, that is a small story out of the many things that has happened to me, and I’m sure Patricia’s story was too. This world is full of stories and full of choices, every single day. I am all about choice. I am all about supporting the rights of not only women, but all things that follow. It’s their choice, do not judge, and for some reason I think that is the first thing pro-lifers people do is judge.
Anyways, I will probably be posting to this blog frequently, after all, this is a place to give an opinion, and I usually have one about everything.
Thanks Patricia, you are one of a kind, I’m glad you made your website, and your responses to some of the pro-life posts just make my day, as well as the frequently posting bloggers on this site. Kudos to all. =)
Aw, thanks, Patricia. I finally have a little time, since I graduated from nursing school last week. As always, love your writing and the points you bring to light. Keep up the great work!
Hey, if you all want a good laugh, as well as a look at yet more special forced-birther science, check these out:
Here, a pro-lifer claims that one’s appendix isn’t alive. (I post as buffed_rn on LiveJournal).
And here, a 15-week fetus has taste buds and can savor its mother’s meals.
Seriously, these had me in tears, I was laughing so hard!
Oh, I forgot to add this one. It’s a point-by-point mocking/refutation of the above pro-lifer (pseudo)embryology lesson.
——-
Blow Job Survivor
Welcome, Kristin. :)
Thank you Ruthie. The pleasure is mine.
“Birth control pills are abortive according the the manufacturers and doctors.”
Breastfeeding a baby on demand is “abortive” the same way.
“And here, a 15-week fetus has taste buds and can savor its mother’s meals.”
For starters, someone’s unclear on the concept of an umbilical cord…
I’m so confused as to what in the hell Pro-Lifers expect us to do. If they consider birth control pills abortive, then obviously they are against women trying to take precautions and have safe-sex.
So now we are murderers if we take the pill or have abortions, so what is left??
My husband will be pissed when I tell him that the next time I want to have sex with him is when I want to get pregnant – which is never. I bet Pro-Lifers husbands spend more money a year on prostitutes than women spend on abortions.
Don’t try to understand it, Kristin. It’ll just make your brain hurt. There is no understanding it, because it makes absolutely no logical or practical sense. All you can do is laugh, because, really, their flimsy attempts at logic and stubborn abnegation of reality are pretty fucking hilarious. And mocking them when they come to obviously unapologetically pro-choice blogs spewing their hysterical bleating over the death of non-sentient clots of tissue is also fun. :D
View said: “Birth control pills are abortive according the the manufacturers and doctors.”
Mina said: “Breastfeeding a baby on demand is “abortive” the same way.”
*eagerly bouncing in seat while raising hand* Ooh, ooh, I know the answer to this one! When she’s breastfeeding, the woman is not going against her biology and is thus not going against God’s will. It’s okay if God, in His loving, indisputably pro-life wisdom, kills people – even innocent babies – because He’s the Master of the Universe and therefore cannot be questioned.
This is the best group of blogger posts yet. You are exposing the extreme anti-choicers for exactly what they are; a bunch of loonies and unstable drama queens lacking the ability to think clearly and critically about issues. It is impossible to understand so we have to just keep fighting the good fight…oh and laughing too.
—–
“oh-shit-the-condom-broke survivor”
“oh-shit-the-condom-broke survivor”
Ha ha ha!
Seriously, mocking forced-birther drama queens never loses its sparkle!
You know, I sincerely miss Ged. His vile, misogynistic rantings were such comic material. There was no need to mock or refute them; they spoke for themselves! Come on, Patricia, un-ban him, please. Pretty please?
“Perverse, murderous pussies.” I still get a chuckle whenever I think about that one. Pussies are powerful and beautiful things, but who knew they could actually commit murder? :D
Ged has never been “banned”–he just got deleted. I have reason to believe he’s posted under other names (like the ever-so-original “Ed”) and I’m positive he was behind the comment spam of last summer, but since I kept my word and merely deleted him without comment any time he acted up he got the hint. He and someone named “Teddie” on the guestbook have really been INS’ only persistent trolls. Each of them bragged that I would never get rid of them. I warned both of them that I would just delete anything they posted and that I could guarantee that they would get tired of the game before I did. That being said, if you want Ged to come out and play, Ruthie, you are welcome to start your own site–but you are not to dangle goat meat to him on mine.
Why do you think your mother using the pill caused 50 embryos to be flushed down the toilet?
I never said the pill caused 50 embryos to be flushed; I said her refusal to conceive and bear every child that could have grown in her uterus cost me a great many siblings. I said that I have flushed many of my own “potential children” down the toilet, every time I have a period, just because I was too damn selfish to have unprotected sex during ovulation every single month. Why don’t all those potential Beethovens get the what-if treatment?
Also, no, I don’t consider myself an ‘abortion survivor’ anymore than I consider myself a ‘blowjob survivor’. If Mum had given Dad head that night instead of shagging then I still wouldn’t be here.
*guffaws* That is absolutely hysterical. I wish I could give you some kind of prize for that stroke of comic genius.
My mum was happy when she found out she was pregnant with me. I bet she regret that after I was born and found out what/how I was:D
Anyway, I always hated the ‘What if your mother had aborted you’ as it’s just a pathetic thing to say as to claim links to site of extreme prolifers are nonbiased. My mum had the choice and she wanted more children. I am not sure about my dad but my mother had me. It was her choice and wasn’t forced. She grew up in a very highly religious family but had the choice. If she had aborted me I would’t have existed and not known a damn thing of what I’ve missed.
Even if I never was easy to handle she loves me. Amazing thing really:)*loves her mum to bits* Even though she has no protests against me getting the snip at some point;)
*stops the thoughts of her parents having sex…*
View
I’ve read Alcorn’s writings on the issue and find them unpersuasive. They mostly rely on what various health officials say instead of on actual objective scientific studies.
Your attack on prolifers who don’t believe birth control pills are abortifacient is slightly uncalled for. There are plenty of prolifers who in good conscience and for scientific reasons don’t believe birth control pills prevent embryos from implanting. Because you disagree doesn’t mean they aren’t being honest.
For example, the American Association of Prolife Ob/Gyns has two papers on this subject – one that thinks the Pill is abortifacient and the other which doesn’t – http://www.aaplog.org/oral.htm –
L.,
I’m your favorite white male Christian prolifer, eh? If Naaman is white, he’s so jealous.
Scream,
I’m sorry if I mistook what you wrote. I don’t know if your mom not conceiving another child cost you a sibling – since those siblings never existed. The argument against abortion is that those siblings/children actually existed. Are you trying to say that your eggs are “potential children?” I wouldn’t call an egg a “potential child” since the term “potential child” makes about as much sense as saying you have a “potential thought.” There’s simply no such thing. You either have a child (or thought) or you don’t.
Again, pro-lifers, one and all, there is no pregnancy without implantation. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Preventing implantation is not abortion, it is contraception. Therefore, hormonal contraceptives cannot ever be abortifacients, even if one believes that they prevent implantation.
Anyone who claims otherwise is incorrect. And now that you know why hormonal contraceptives are not abortifacients, claiming they are or may be abortifacients makes you a liar. Lying is generally frowned upon by nearly everyone and is, as far as I know, frowned upon by all religions.
Oh, J. — I forgot Naaman comments here sometimes, too. Yes, he`s as white as white can be, and he`s certainly pro-life and certainly Christian, too.
Your point of view above requires that one believe that when a particular sperm meets a particular egg, the resulting zygote is a “child.”
And regarding the birth control pill — far be it from me to criticize anyone from using contraception. But you seem to be doing what pro-life people accuse pro-choice people of doing all the time: selectively disregarding information. It`s true that hormonal borth control works mainly by suppressing ovulation, but if there is a chance that an egg will get released, be fertilized, thereby becoming a “child” in your view, how can you reconcile using contraception that won`t allow this “child” of yours to implant and develop? This seems to me to be inconsistent.
Ruthied,
Throughout the last 30 or so years, the term “abortifacient” has typically be used to describe drugs which prevent implantation. This is not new. The definition of pregnancy has also historically been as starting at conception. It has recently (last twenty years or so?) been changed by certain medical associations for political reasons.
Regardless of how medical associations want to define pregnancy – things which prevent a human embryo from implanting would be a serious concern for prolifers.
L.,
If there is a chance? What does that mean? I could use the same argument to argue that women shouldn’t eat various kinds of food because there could be a chance (though there’s no evidence to prove it) the food could interfere with implantation.
Patricia,
I hope Ben is doing better. Boys and their bikes, huh? Not a good combo.
J., there`s plenty of evidence that a woman can still ovulate even is she`s taking hormonal birth control. You seem to be choosing to ignore it, and say it won`t happen in your particular case.
Jivin-
I wasn’t attacking anyone, but I evidently hit your soft spot unintentionally, which only illuminates my point: Why is the fact that the pill is abortive only contested by prolifers?
The manufacturers, who designed the pill to change the endometrial layer to prevent implantation and describe these mechanisms in the package inserts, the pharmacists who study drugs and their effects are convinced of the pills’ abortive properties. The other research was biased, conducted by prolife people who were trying to prove otherwise was is accepted as scientific fact. Those researchers you mentioned, beleiving that life starts at conception, desperately wanted to suggest that the pill is not abortive. I also beleive life starts at conception and don’t want this to be true, either, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is.
You don’t have to be swayed by Randy Alcorn’s findings. Just go look it up in a PDR. If this wasn’t true why would manufacturer’s mention it? Likewise why did the definition of pregnancy require changing? That’s the only way chemical birth control could become legal since human life once had legal protections, thus it was changed.
Jive–I had to laugh when I saw your comment. I literally got five e-mails in the course of forty seconds from friends asking me if I’d heard about the accident, and people in my office were tiptoeing around me like I was a grieving widow. Heh. By all reports he should be okay, but I will add my voice to the chorus of “you dumbass!” for him not wearing a helmet.
L.,
Yes, there’s evidence that a woman can ovulate while on the pill – however there isn’t evidence that if a breakthrough ovulation occurs and a sperm happens to reach the egg (which is tougher when women are on the pill) and fertilize the egg – that the pill would then prevent the human embryo from attaching to the uterine wall.
View,
I’m fairly certain there are a good number of pro-choicers who would disagree regarding what you think the pill does.
The manufacturers are merely saying what they assume the pill does based on a complete lack of evidence. Almost the same thing is happening with emergency contraception. Manufacturers put something on the label/description because they don’t really know what the drug does. Now scientific studies are providing evidence that emergency contraception doesn’t effect implantation. Just because manufacturers put something on the label doesn’t necessarily make it true.
The other research was biased because it was performed by prolifers? Huh? Which research? Which study? What is your evidence of bias? I provided the website of prolife doctors who didn’t do the research themselves but looked over a large amount of research regarding birth control pills and come to a different conclusion than yourself.
PDR? What is that?
Hi Patricia,
FYI – I don’t know if it’s just my computer but when I try to get to the main page of INS blog I get a blank page.
Jivin-
PDR= Physician’s Desk Reference. It’s the encyclopedia of medications that doctor’s use.
I hope you’re right but I doubt it.
Let me explain why (This will be quite long):
I have endometriosis, a condition where the endometrium grows so thick it escapes the uterus and grows in other places, causing pain and cysts. I’m 25 now and I’ve had this problem since I was 13. The pill is the number 1 (and perhaps only) “medication” that “treats” endometriosis. I was perscribed the pill at 14 and took it briefly but had such violent reactions to it that my mother chose natural remedies instead.
As a college student away from home (living off Lattes and M&Ms instead of organic tofu), my symptoms returned with a vengence. When seeking help from a doctor about my pain (that kept me home from work and school), the doctor offered the pill. That’s when I really started thinking about it: “How does a pill that’s designed to make you temporarily infertile so you don’t get pregnant help with a medical condition?” I asked her how it worked.
The doctor told me that it suppresses ovulation. To which my I replied, “I want to ovulate. It’s healthy. If it ain’t broke…” She then said that it changes the consistency of cervical mucus. To which I said, “Nothing wrong with me there either.” Then she said that it thins the endometrium so it doesn’t grow out of control.
This is the abortive property. I’ve done a lot of research on the pill for my own treatment. An endometrium must be 10mm thick for a baby to implant. Thousands of women with endometriosis are treated with a pill and it works. Albeit this isn’t the intended use of the pill (it’s off-the-label), but if these women are relieved by thinning the endometrial layer so that is inhospitable to a baby, perhaps the manufacturers (as well as thousands of women) are correct about that property of the pill.
Although I was abstinent and not at risk of aborting if I used the pill, I didn’t want the other effects messing with the healthy aspects of my system (I was also in a serious relationship that looked like upcoming marriage, so I didn’t want to have to find another treatment later, anyway.) I also didn’t want to give my money to that industry. Luckily I found a Catholic OBGYN that was able to help me. I also picked up my old diet and exercise habits and now I have no symptoms.
But in this process I researched the pill thorougly and spoke with doctors and pharmacists at length. Bottom line: If the pill did not have the abortive mechanism, it couldn’t treat endometriosis.
That was most likely too much information, but I’m not parroting EWTN, here. There is substantial evidence about the pill’s abortive nature. And regardless, if there is any DOUBT AT ALL, is the ability to have spontenaneous, latex-free sex worth the possibility of aborting a human being? What are our values? I think it’s open-and-shut, frankly, but while there are any doubts, that human pesticide is not going anywhere near my body. Shouldn’t we err on the side of life? Since there are other birth control methods that are clearly non-abortive, what loss is there to using those? It looks as if being are valuing sex and convienence over life.
Hey, my mother thought about aborting me. She had a hell of a pregnancy.
What matters is that my mom loved and was a good mom after I was born- she had every right to consider terminanting a pregnancy that was making her gravely ill when she already had a daughter to think about (my older sister). I’m not so egotistical to think that people need to sacrifice their health and well-being to bring me into this world. If I wasn’t born, I wouldn’t regret it- I wouldn’t know. You can’t miss what you don’t know.
And yes- abortion surviver is the drama queen nominee of the decade.
Oh, and view…
People are allergic to latex, and BCP is more effective than condoms.
I’d rather risk aborting zygotes I don’t want in the first place than having an accidental pregnancy that requires an medical or surgical abortion.
The fact that you don’t like the pill- don’t take it. Generally speaking, people on the pill don’t want to be pregnant, so you’re talking to the wrong choir.
Oh, and BTW… I can’t handle the pill myself. I was on it for 4 years, trying every conceivable brand- none worked for me well. I also have endometriosis.
Having endometriosis, I would never, ever be so callous to say to the women that take the pill that they’re some evil abortion-sinners. I know the physical pain, and good for ppl that can take the pill and the pill helps their condition.
“And regardless, if there is any DOUBT AT ALL, is the ability to have spontenaneous, latex-free sex worth the possibility of aborting a human being?”
A zygote is not a human being, at least not in my opinion.
My endometriosis is somewhat controlled by the Mirena IUD I have, which works again by thinning the endometrial layers.
Frankly, I don’t care HOW it works, I just know I’m not screaming in agony as much as I used to (I still do, it hasn’t stopped the pain, just lessened it). Again, if A Zygote gets shoved out of my system so that I can stop screaming in agony then I consider that a fair damn trade-off.
It was my INFORMED choice to make, and I made it. I’m a biology graduate so I know damn well how contraceptive methods work and I have no moral qualms about any of them.
Plus, the Mirena means I can hump my husband anytime without worrying about contraception for the next 5 years.
Hello, Catty-
Want to put some words is my mouth there?
would never, ever be so callous to say to the women that take the pill that they’re some evil abortion-sinners.
Hello! Find one negative thing I said about women- let alone “evil abortion sinner” in my post or anything to that effect. Anything? No. If you find anything, please cut and paste. I also know the pain, and I said nothing at all callous about women who take the pill- let alone calling them “evil abortion sinners.”
Generally speaking, people on the pill don’t want to be pregnant, so you’re talking to the wrong choir.
A zygote is not a human being, at least not in my opinion.
I wouldn’t expect you to care about a newly conceived human being anymore that you care for a thumb-sucking fetus. I was talking to JivinJ, who beleives that life begins at conception.
Watcher-
As a biology graduate, does the pill prevent implantation? Since you have no moral qualms about it, and don’t care either way, what is your professional opinion?
Watcher-
Why don’t you just have surgeons take the uterus? No more possible abortions, not IUD, etc.
My uterus has caused me so much pain in the past, and I have to watch my diet, etc. closely as not to have symptoms. If I never wanted kids, I’d have them take it out.
“My uterus has caused me so much pain in the past, and I have to watch my diet, etc. closely as not to have symptoms. If I never wanted kids, I’d have them take it out.”
Having an early hysterectomy can increase health risks, view. Considering the fact that artificial hormone supplementation is under fire for increasing health risks, I’m glad I kept my uterus. Believe me, I thought about a hysterectomy since I started my period.
Answer me this, view… Would you like the pill to be banned? You’re anti-abortion and you’re calling the pill an abortifacent, which means I suspect you would support pharmacists’s rights to not dispense the pill, and you would support a ban on the pill.
View, why should any woman subject herself to needless, invasive, risky surgery just to satisfy the sensibilities of ignorant, meddlesome religiofascists such as yourself? Especially when there are far less invasive, less risky interventions that will accomplish their goals. You need to get your nose out from between other women’s legs. Do with your uterus what you will, just as we’ll do with ours.
Catty-
You don’t need hormone supplementation if they take your uterus and leave your ovaries, or so I’ve read. It’s only if they take everything. You’re right-I wouldn’t want to mess with artificial hormones. Oh wait- isn’t that exactly what the birth control pill is? I don’t want to mess with it on any front.
Would you like the pill to be banned?
Absolutely! For all the reasons you named and then some.
When I was searching for a medicine for my endo, I wished I could just get a bill to thin the endometrium (which was the problem) and not deal with the other unhealthy aspects that fix things that aren’t broke. This doesn’t exist but the pill is given out like M&Ms. Since I wasn’t sexually active, I had no reason to worry about the abortive effect. I think an alternative endo treatment should be available and the pill is holding up medical research on the real problem.
Ruthie-
Is your name Watcher? If not, I don’t beleive I was speaking to you. Don’t be so meddlesome!
On the abortion survivor thing:
Does this young lady count?
cattygurl
What matters is that my mom loved and was a good mom after I was born- she had every right to consider terminanting a pregnancy that was making her gravely ill when she already had a daughter to think about (my older sister). I’m not so egotistical to think that people need to sacrifice their health and well-being to bring me into this world. If I wasn’t born, I wouldn’t regret it- I wouldn’t know. You can’t miss what you don’t know.
Yeah, but you happen to be sane and rational.
and not a big honking drama queen.
View,
I suggest you read the paper by Dr. Joseph DeCook if you haven’t already. It’s online at http://www.aaplog.org/decook.htm
He’s a prolife doctor who is/has been the president of the American Association of Prolife Ob/GYNs. His paper has nearly 80 references.
He explains how the human embryo secretes various chemicals after conception has occurred to help prepare the uterus for implantation. Read the whole thing but here’s a helpful paragraph.
“The follicle (now a corpus luteum) most commonly appears as a smaller, irregular cyst which, if conception has NOT occurred, diminishes in size and ceases to function 2 weeks after ovulation. With subsequent decrease of luteal estrogen and progesterone, the uterine lining (endometrium) is then shed as the menstrual period. However, if conception HAS occurred, the embryo begins, by the time it implants, to secrete another chemical messenger, hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin), which acts like LH to rejuvenate and stimulate the corpus luteum to continue its function until the placenta takes over hormone production 2 months later. The corpus luteum produces, in the six days after ovulation, 10 to 20 times the levels of both estrogen and progesterone seen in a non-ovulatory “pill” cycle. (Preovulatory pill cycle has estradiol level of 25 pg/ml, preovulatory normal cycle has estradiol level of about 40 pg/ml.) During an ovulatory cycle, estradiol reaches a peak of 400 pg/ml during the day before ovulation-a ten to 16 fold increase-and peaks again at 275 pg/ml by day 6 after ovulation, which is the day of implantation. Progesterone values rise from a preovulatory 0.5 ng/ml to a peak of 10 ng/ml by implantation day-a twenty fold rise. (41,42) These high levels act on the lining in these seven days to prepare it for implantation and support of the arriving (via the fallopian tube) living embryo. Corpus luteum function continues until 8 to 10 weeks from ovulation, at which time (noted above) the placenta assumes the burden of producing these hormones to support the growing pregnancy.
In the extensive literature we have reviewed, no writer has addressed this very significant question: In a menstrual cycle on the “pill” in which ovulation occurs, what is the histology of the endometrium six days after ovulation (the time of implantation)? Certainly the hormone milieu and endometrial histology will be different from a menstrual cycle on the “pill” in which ovulation does not occur (i.e.,the typical atrophic, or “hostile,” endometrium). The FSH-LH-estradiol surge the day before ovulation, and the resulting corpus luteum formation, with its ten to twentyfold estradiol and progesterone output, should produce significant changes in the endometrium. In a normal menstrual cycle, on the day of ovulation the uterine lining (proliferative endometrium) is not receptive to implantation. Seven days of follicle and corpus luteum hormone output transform it to “receptive.” The same follicle and corpus luteum hormone output, when ovulation occurs in a “pill” cycle, should have a similar salutary effect on the pill-primed endometrium. It is highly probable that the so-called “hostile to implantation” endometrium– heralded (without proof) from the beginning by the “pill” producing companies, echoed (without investigation) by 2 generations of scientific writers, and now adopted (as a scientific fact) by some sincere prolife advocates– simply does not exist six days after ovulation in a pill cycle. What is currently known about the endometrial response to corpus luteum hormones suggests this conclusion. Research regarding endometrial histology on the sixth day after escape ovulation in “on pill” cycles would add useful information to the current discussion.”
Why don’t you just have surgeons take the uterus?
I would LOVE them to! But NONE will.
I am 27, childfree and ALL I get is “but you might want babies one day”.
Unless the condition is actually life-threatening they won’t do it. DOn’t you think I haven’t thought about this, and tried HARD? It was enough of an uphill struggle to get them to approve the damn IUD since I don’t have kids.
Until such a time as the medical profession wakes up and realises that a under 30 woman can say she NEVER wants kids and MEAN it, instead of giving us the “oh, you’ll change your mind” crap, then I’m sticking with my IUD and the myraid painkillers I have to take.
Oh, and the pill also helps with conditions like PCOS, so banning it would mean those women living in pain too.
To take away hormonal treatments that provide not only sexual freedom, but also control of extremely painful conditions, is inhumane. If you have a moral objection to the medication then please don’t take it.
Don’t deny us the only chance we have – realistically – of some escape from the crippling pain that these conditions cause.
does the pill prevent implantation?
Current medical research seems to suggest that while it is plausible, it actually hardly EVER occurs. All the tests and studies show that women on the pill passed no fertilised ovum.
If it did prevent implantation to a great extent then they would expect to see at least 5 fertilised ovum being passed during the test period of 6 months (with regular sexual intercourse happening).
The same thing happened when they tested IUDs. Those women didn’t pass any fertilised ovum either, so the IUD must work by preventing fertilisation, as does the pill.
If either of these had a primary or even secondary function of disallowing implantation then there would have been lots of expelled ova. There were none.
Most of the time, hysterectomy when involving endometriosis includes removal of the ovaries, because it’s the secretion from the hormones in your ovaries that cause the development of the endometrial lining.
And no, the hormones used for BCP is different from the horomones used for HRT.
So, you would take away medication from women suffering from a debilitating condition because you think it’s bad? Just because it’s bad for me doesn’t mean it’s bad for everyone else.
Yes, you want the pill banned because you think it’s an abortifacent- you could give a flying fuck about women that are helped by the pill. You don’t give a flying fuck about women- you just want to impose your will on others. It’s really clear.
HAVING EXPERIENCED INTENSE AND DEBILITATING PAIN FROM ENDOMETRIOSIS, I would never, ever dream of taking any medication away from someone with the same condition when it works for them. It didn’t work for me, you didn’t wanna take it- that’s fine. But to take the medication away from women through banning the pill? you’re a wretched scum of a human being, and i’m ashamed that you’re a woman and I share the same gender with you.
The same thing happened when they tested IUDs. Those women didn’t pass any fertilised ovum either, so the IUD must work by preventing fertilisation, as does the pill.
Yeah, I was despondent for an entire day when I discovered this. I used to get such perverse pleasure out of the thought that each month I was flushing away what the pro-liars claim is a baby.
I’d prefer they continue believing the IUD to be abortifacient, since they’ll have to pry my Paragard out of my cold, dead uterus to stop me from using it.
“Oh, and the pill also helps with conditions like PCOS, so banning it would mean those women living in pain too.”
Speaking of PCOS, banning the pill could even prevent the births of some children.
PCOS symptoms include weight gain and extra body hair growth, which make it harder for a woman to attract a man. Suppose a woman with PCOS gets those symptoms under control with the pill, attracts a man’s interest, spends enough time with him for him to learn about her personality, goes off the pill once he knows enough about her to love her regardless of her looks, marries him, and has a baby with him. If she hadn’t gone on the pill, she may have been unable to attract his initial interest in the first place and thus that baby would never have been born. Hmm…
banning the pill could even prevent the births of some children.
Women on fertility drugs are often put on the pill to regulate their cycles. so, it would also stop women whose goal is to eventually GET pregnant, too.
I agree with Cattgurl, people who wish to ban the pill don’t give a damn about women.
“You need to get your nose out from between other women’s legs. Do with your uterus what you will, just as we’ll do with ours.” Thank you, Ruthied. That’s pretty much my entire point as far as being pro-choice is concerned. View could choose to be concerned about her own shit yet people like her waste tremendous time and effort being concerned with and meddling with everybody else’s shit. A counselor??? Hah; counselor my ass…too young to be a lost & wasted soul but there you have it.
What goes on between my legs is my own business but I’ll tell ya’ll one thing…I LOVE IT.
I agree with cattygurl..Any woman who would rather a woman suffer in pain than take the pill, is in the lowest class of human species. I feel so bad for the women on this blog, and all the women in the world who suffers from endometriosis or any other condition that causes pain.
I have a severe case of scholosis, and even though it’s bad to say, my whole life depends on my pain medication, if I didn’t have it, I would not be able to work or even get out of bed, my back hurts so bad it is sometimes crippling. I could never imagine someone to tell me they wanted Percocet banned, because I would be in horrific pain, and would probably rather be dead. That is the exact same thing that anyone who is trying to ban the pill is doing, wanting women to suffer so they can think they have saved a few damn eggs/embryos. What they need to realize is that when those embryo’s turn into fetuses, they will most likely be aborted anyway, so Pro-Lifer’s, you lose AGAIN. No way around it, women are going to abort fetuses, take birth control and do whatever they please. I’m glad that some of you have the perfect pain-free life, but not all of us are so fortunate, so leave us the hell alone! My life is 10 times more important than some egg or a fetus that looks weird to me anyway in the first stages of development (which is when most women abort). Kinda looks like strawberry jam to me afterwards.
My life is 10 times more important than some egg or a fetus
Actually, Kristin, despite the histrionic bleating of the christofascist zygote-worshippers to the contrary, according to Leviticus 27:1-8, a woman’s life is worth infinitely more than that of a zef. Note that persons under the age of 30 days (counted from birth) are assigned a worth of…*drumroll*…EXACTLY ZERO. Zero times 1 million, zero times 1 billion, zero times infinity, zero times anything equals exactly zero every fucking time.
The ironic thing is that when these repressed, misogynistic fuckwads claim that abortion and non-procreative sex are sins against god, they are adding to the bible or putting words in god’s mouth, which, according to the bible, is a sin for which punishment is eternal burning in the lake of fire.
See you in hell, pro-lifers! :D
Ruthied, stick to subjects you might possibly know at least a little about and try to refrain from profanity, otherwise both your ignorance and intelligence level are revealed, for surely someone who uses such “big-girl” words like histrionic can do better than consistently resorting to playground name-calling antics with the overused f-wad references (though your math skills are to be commended).
You say, “according to Leviticus 27:1-8, a woman’s life is worth infinitely more than that of a zef. Note that persons under the age of 30 days (counted from birth) are assigned a worth of…*drumroll*…EXACTLY ZERO. Zero times 1 million, zero times 1 billion, zero times infinity, zero times anything equals exactly zero every fucking time.”
Curious, I looked up Leviticus 27:1-8, which following your “logic” actually sets the value of women at only a fraction of men, regardless of age, but you must have missed that part when selecting your supportive references. Actually, no value at all is mentioned for persons younger than one month old, which obviously does not mean a newborn’s value is “EXACTLY ZERO” as you mistakenly surmise, but simply no tithe was expected to be paid. If this is the best you can do to twist God’s Word into supporting a woman’s right to kill her own child, you failed foolishly. Based on your erroneous post, who is actually “adding to the Bible or putting words in God’s mouth”? If you insist on attempting to defend abortion with Scripture, then “bring it on”.
Let’s just hope this “Buffed RN”, who thinks a four week old baby’s value is “EXACTLY ZERO”, isn’t working anywhere near the neonatal wing or pediatrician’s office. BTW, regarding the lake of fire, be sure to send postcards!
If you’re going to start a game of Dueling Bible Verses, please take it elsewhere. Every word in there can be used to support whatever position one wishes to take. All the game shows is that you’re good at memorizing or looking things up, not that you’re right or someone else is wrong, and I won’t have anyone clogging up my blog with that crap. As always, that goes for both sides. If you want to test me … ahem … bring it on.
Sounds fair enough to both sides Webmaster; after all you’re in charge. I’ll politely respect your rules, but am still interested in learning which Bible verse could possibly be used to support abortion. No “duel” is intended, but if you know any abortion-defending Bible reference, it would be very informative to enlighten us…ahem…”burning in the lake of fire christofascists”.
Watcher – I agree with you. I also have a mirena IUD and could care less how it works. I just know I’m safe until 2010 and loving it. Also, I’m sorry to hear you had so much trouble getting one. I had mine inserted when I was 19 with hardly any questions asked.
View- Banning the pill? That’ just plain rediculous. Who could that possible benefit? All those poor, unborn “children”? gimme a break…
Yes, I have morals. You all do not. We’ve established this.
I guess it’s a good thing I don’t care what any of you think of me. Since you have no problems with killing unborn children, your opinion(s) couldn’t carry any less weight in my book. Throw your obscenities and name-calling around all you please. It simply reveals your characters even further.
I still lament that a medication hasn’t been invented that actually addresses the problem at hand and instead women with real problems like PCOS and endometriosis must resort to off-the-label uses of the pill, and have to endure the side effects that accompany a bunch of effects that are unhealthy and unnecessary. I wish a pill just existed to treat my condition instead of pumping me full of hormones to jack up everything that works correctly. If the birth control pill wasn’t such an easy cop-out, perhaps real medication would exist, and I wouldn’t have to get so much soy and flax in my diet.
View, I noticed in your post, you had alot of “I’s”. MY condition, pumping ME full of horomones, MY diet. You’re very concerned about yourself aren’t you?
How about all the other women who suffer daily? The pill works at preventing pain, so why in the world would you want them to come up with another medication, when they have that already works? That would cost millions, when instead they can find a cure for something they don’t already have a medication for.
“The pill works at preventing pain, so why in the world would you want them to come up with another medication, when they have that already works?”
Good question. It’s like seeing a traditional teen mom lament “If postponing marriage wasn’t such an easy cop-out, perhaps real work-life balance solutions would exist in my high school, and I wouldn’t have to ask my mother-in-law to do so much babysitting.”
Gee Kirsten, While you are sure quick to criticize and judge others, are these the words of a mature, loving, kind, unselfish, compassionate individual?
“My life is 10 times more important than some egg or a fetus that looks weird to me anyway in the first stages of development (which is when most women abort). Kinda looks like strawberry jam to me afterwards.”
Sorry, I apologize for misspelling Kristin’s name.
“Yes, I have morals. You all do not. We’ve established this.”
Um…no, we haven`t. Not sure what the hell you`re talking about there, View.
“Um…no, we haven`t. Not sure what the hell you`re talking about there, View.”
Frankly, do we ever?
AH, who was I judging or criticizing? If you’re talking about what I said to View, then you need to read her post and see how concerned she is about herself and what happens to HER, rather than all women in general.
And my life IS more important than that of an egg or fetus! And so is yours, all other posters on this blog, and all other living humans in general.
What I said is my opinion, and as you very well know, EVERYBODY has one, but I don’t force mine upon others as Pro-Lifers do. It is a womans choice as to whether or not she aborts and whether or not she takes the pill. It is not your place or my place to tell any woman what to do with her body and what is inside of it. If you think the pill is abortive, then DON’T take it, but don’t take that choice away from someone who needs it to keep pain away. Just get over it, plain and simple.
I have done extensive research on my pain medication, which is Percocet, and it can cause a lot of different side effects. Some of which you may not agree with, but who are you to tell me I have to quit taking it and be in pain? Get a life!
Kristin, I’m not telling you to do anything, particularly with regards to your pain medication; severe scholosis must be very difficult to endure and I admire how you bravely carry on with life.
However, I would hope you might someday see that an “egg or fetus” IS inarguably a “living human”, 50% of which are future women, just at a very small stage of their human life. Like Ruthied tried to persuade us, should a person’s size and age determine one’s value?
Ironically, “Get a life!” is exactly what I’m trying to do each morning at the abortion clinic by giving women whatever they might need so that they don’t have to kill their unborn child. Thanks for the encouragement!
For you to consider View selfish because (in your opinion) her only concern is “about herself and what happens to HER”, rather than thinking about the impact on other people is blatantly hypocritical. How can you criticize her when the same could be said of many women who choose abortion for the reason it’s my choice, all about me, me, me, me… killing at a rate of 4,000 human lives each day. You are very concerned about YOUR pain, yet coldly unconcerned about the pain a fetus feels while enduring his/her mother’s “choice”.
Why is it that so many people who claim “I want to do X instead of taking the easy way out” proceed to request an easier way to do X?
“Yes, I have morals. You all do not. We’ve established this.”
*snort*
In your mind, maybe.
Yes, I have morals. You all do not. We’ve established this.
A good Christian such as you claim to be should not proclaim herself to be better than others, View. That kind of attitude definitely does not sit well with the Big Guy from what I’m told. Remember what Jesus said: “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” If it makes you feel better about yourself to believe yourself morally superior to strangers on the internet, go for it. Another great line: “Pride goeth before a fall.” Might want to remember that one.
Webmaster, while you’re quoting Scripture to support your claim, I’m still waiting for even one verse that defends abortion. Since you asserted earlier that “Every word in there can be used to support whatever position one wishes to take”, what’s taking so long?
Surely you also realize that the verses right after the one you chose regarding judgement have this to say, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” and “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
I suppose the interesting question you raise is therefore, whose eye has the speck and whose eye has the plank that needs to be removed?
After all, I thought INS “makes you feel better about yourself to believe yourself” unequivocally superior to the unborn human life in the womb, which is the ultimate indication of selfish pride.
AH, yes, my scholosis is extremely difficult to endure especially since I sit in a chair 8 hours a day, 13 during tax season (Accountant). And since I have a hard time with cramps during my period, I cannot imagine the pain women with endometriosis endure.
And why is it that when the Webmaster comes up with an excellent example of you being a hypocrite, you totally ignore the whole point of her post.
You say:
After all, I thought INS “makes you feel better about yourself to believe yourself” unequivocally superior to the unborn human life in the womb, which is the ultimate indication of selfish pride.
INS allows us to share and read stories so we can relate to women without being bashed by someone. Whether or not you choose to believe it, some women do feel bad about having abortions, but choose to continue with life and take it as a lesson learned. So PLEASE do not judge. You need to listen and help.
Why don’t you focus on the poverty in foreign countries, and even here in the Appalachian Mountains (which is where I am from). Only few of us are fortunate enough to have loving, caring families, and middle class is as high as we go here, there are maybe 3 people who are very wealthy. If only you could see some of the incest children. It’s absolutely horrible. Try to focus on them and not letting them multiply.
Kristin, Sorry I haven’t been more clear. I absolutely DO believe “some women feel bad about having abortions, but choose to continue with life and take it as a lesson learned.” Unfortunately, women who “feel bad” about their abortions are made called “drama queen” “f-wads” on this blog that is purports to be supportive, liberating, empowering, and sensitive to women.
Again, let me be clear, I am not judging anyone, just asking for the same understanding and respect that you desire and deserve. I do listen and I do help, donating to end poverty in foreign countries, the Appalachian Mountains and my hometown through faith-based charities. The conditions you describe are horrible, but how is abortion the best solution? Doesn’t abortion just allow incest to continue, while women continue to be victimized? Surely there is a better solution. As a person who lives there, what do you see as ways we could help?
PS, just curious, when did “Webmaster come up with an excellent example of me being a hypocrite”?
“Why don’t you focus on the poverty in foreign countries, and even here in the Appalachian Mountains (which is where I am from).”
Let me guess, she’s afraid that she might actually enjoy doing something to help reduce poverty and that doing something she enjoys is more selfish than doing something she doesn’t enjoy?
“Try to focus on them and not letting them multiply.”
Nitpick: “not letting them multiply” would mean stopping them from multiplying whether they want to or not. It’s much better to let people multiply as they choose instead of forcing them to multiply more, less, earlier, later, etc. than they want to. :)
“Doesn’t abortion just allow incest to continue, while women continue to be victimized?”
Tell that to one of those people who both thinks women and girls should have babies as often as possible and marries off his grandchildren to each other.
Kristin, forgive my ignorance, but isn’t incest illegal, particularly under non-consensual familial rape conditions? If so, why aren’t the abortion clinics mandated to report such circumstances to law enforcement to protect women from such brutality- incest, rape, and consequent abortions? What do you mean by “not letting them multiply” and how would this be accomplished?
Sorry, I was brought up Catholic and did not have the Bible shoved down my throat as the Protestants like to do, so I admit I would crash and burn in a game of Dueling Bible Verses. I’m sure those better versed in the book could come up with something. But if someone comes on here and declares themselves morally superior they will get the smackdown, particularly if they have a history of doing that as View does.
And yes–gasp!–I did put my life ahead of a fetus (okay, technically an embryo). That was my choice. If a woman continues a pregnancy, that’s her choice. And, as always, it’s none of anyone’s business–a concept that many who comment here can’t seem to grasp.
AH, yes, incest is illegal, but I’m not sure you fully grasp the concept of how poverty stricken the Appalachian Mountains are. The people who are incest live far in the mountains, usually in huts on hiking trails, and I’m not even sure they understand what abortion is. I seriously doubt that any of your money goes to help those people, because I don’t believe there are any groups that focus on them.
My husband had the unfortunate experience of coming up on a group of incests while hunting in the woods. He explains it to me as the movie “Wrong Turn” (which is based in West Virginia – you may have seen it). They literally scared the hell out of him, they were driving a homemade truck and could not talk properly. He said it looked as if they had not taken a shower in years, and they had about 7 kids with them.
What I mean by “not letting them multiply” is by trying to separate them from each other. It is so hard to explain without you having seen them. They have the mind capacity of a 3 year old, and I have no clue how they figured out how to have sex, I guess it just comes natural. My best friends mom runs a small home for the mentally challenged, and she has mentioned several times she would not mind to have one of them in her home.
In my opinion, I just don’t think it’s fair to let children come into the world where they will not be able to function properly because their Dad is their Uncle and their Sister is their Mom. However, I do feel differently about couples who find their child may have Downs Syndrome or another disease, because they will be able to care for their child in a fashionable manner. But again, I bring the point up that is their choice.
But as Mina said and I completely agree with her:
Nitpick: “not letting them multiply” would mean stopping them from multiplying whether they want to or not. It’s much better to let people multiply as they choose instead of forcing them to multiply more, less, earlier, later, etc. than they want to. :)
Maybe I just worded it wrong by saying “not letting them multiply”, because after all, it is their choice. I guess I feel as if they are not capable of making their own choice, but maybe I’m wrong.
yes, yes, sidewalker, you have “morals”.
On the other hand most of us pro-choice types have a system of “ethics” which means we actually think about our standards, not vomit back what was force-fed to us.
darn.
“It is so hard to explain without you having seen them. They have the mind capacity of a 3 year old, and I have no clue how they figured out how to have sex, I guess it just comes natural.”
Yikes – I had the impression you were talking about a situation more like the “a match between cousins is a match made in heaven!!!” crowd. They have higher rates of stillbirth, deafness, mental retardation, etc. than communities which don’t marry off first cousins and double cousins to each other…and at the same time they still also have some sons and daughters who carry those recessive genes and aren’t disabled themselves.
“Maybe I just worded it wrong by saying “not letting them multiply”, because after all, it is their choice.”
Indeed. The way it was first worded evoked some kind of “Zero Child Rule” a la China’s anti-choice “One Child Rule.”
Webmaster, I am a practicing Catholic and the Bible wasn’t “shoved down my throat” either, but rather I have a passion for learning and desired at least a basic understanding of this Book that has been read by people throughout the world, throughout time. Sure you will find “religious” groups that support abortion, (heck there’s even “Catholics for Choice”), but even Bible scholars won’t be able to give you a single verse to support abortion- it’s simply not there.
However, one thing you will find, over and over, particularly in the New Testament, is Christ’s message of love, gentle kindness, mercy, grace and forgiveness given freely to each of us. There is no moral superiority in my heart, for I too am but a sinner. Yet, to receive Christ’s forgiveness, we must through faith, come to Him with contrite and repentant hearts, which is directly contrary to the “I’m NOT Sorry” mantra.
You say, “I was brought up Catholic” as if it was past-tense, yet the Church teaches once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Therefore, I earnestly invite you back, Webmaster. Life is all about choices, some good and some not good, but each with its own inherent responsibilities and consequences. Thankfully, God allows U-turns, always inviting us back, just as we are. For no matter what we (I) have done and no matter how far we’ve (I’ve) wandered, He never left us (me).
I know I will be scoffed at for this “church-lady” comment, which will likely sound more Protestant than Catholic, but I care enough about you to reach out with a sincere invitation, not one of judgement, but one of humble empathy; not one of condemnation, but of thankful mercy; not one of anger or hate, but of loving hospitality. How is that for a CHOICE?
Nah, AH, it’s okay. I know you mean well, but as I wrote in a previous entry I lost interest a long time ago. I don’t worry about heaven or hell (or purgatory or limbo for that matter) because you experience that during life. I don’t search for a deeper meaning to it all. Like Charlotte says, we’re born, we live a little while, we die. If you’re really interested in my views on the whole thing, I wrote this entry back in December.
Patricia, I do mean well and do sincerely care about you and all the other colorful personalities that come here. I read through your December entry as you suggested and was amazed at how little this group changes with time- same list of characters, ranting with the same arguments almost verbatim, and when I go to their respective websites, most (not all) readers are still living self-described unhappy, angst-filled lives stuck on INS rewind. Merely repeating, “I’m Not Sorry, I’m Not Sorry, I’m Not Sorry…” doesn’t seem to bring the peace that is sought after. Instead of moving on beyond one’s abortion, leaving it in the past, the goal seems to encourage as many other women as possible to join the “happy” group, a process that doesn’t help anyone, you, me, or the next woman.
There really is a “deeper meaning to it all” and that is where faith and forgiveness comes in. That hole in every heart, mine included, seeks to be filled. We can futilely chase after “it” with lots of bad choices, selfish pursuits, and stubborn pride, or not. I lovingly repeat in all earnesty what you said to your readers in December, “Peace be with you”.
The same can be said of the pro-lifers that come here. My buttons aren’t as easily pushed as others, and I think there’s some who come here who attempt to see if they can really piss me off and make me blow a gasket. I do agree with you that there is a repetitiveness about the arguments on both sides, and although I haven’t done so lately I’ve been known to shut commenting down because it gets so damn boring. As I’ve stated ad nauseam, abortion is an intensely personal experience, and because it was the right choice for one person doesn’t mean it is for another. One can say the same about childbirth as well. When I think about what would have happened had I continued my three pregnancies, I literally shudder because I was an absolute mess back then and in no position either mentally or physically to raise children. Having a child isn’t like getting a puppy or kitten from the shelter where you can give it back if it doesn’t work out. How many women out there, if given a safe haven in which to speak, would say “I wish I’d never had children”? I think the number would be eye-poppingly large. And with all the damaged children already in the world, why would any compassionate person demand that more be brought into it?
“The same can be said of the pro-lifers that come here.” How do you mean, Patricia? Yeah, we “pro-lifers” come and go, drop off the page never to be heard from again, only to be replaced with a newby “do-gooder” who presents the same “abortion kills a baby and I want to help you” position, but as a general observation, I don’t think our lives are nearly as deeply complicated.
Honestly, I don’t know of any women who would say “I wish I’d never had children”, even those who have also had multiple abortions followed by “wanted” children, even those who have had to resort to “tough love”, even those speaking in a “safe haven”. Sure we rememember horrific, sad, heart-wrenching headlines of Moms killing their children and stories of child abuse, and even “well-adjusted” families go through tough times, but I really don’t think the percentage of regretful mothers is “eye-poppingly large”. Is there a “I hate my child” blog that I’m not aware of, or do you have any other way of supporting your assertion?
You say, “And with all the damaged children already in the world, why would any compassionate person demand that more be brought into it?”… which misses what the collective “we” have been saying over and over again, Patricia. If you have been pregnant three times, you have already brought three children into the world and killing them was not at all compassionate. I know, I know, you have already heard this “ad nauseum” times before, nothing new, but that’s just it, the truth is unchanging. Ask yourself, personally, honestly, and privately, “Are you happy now?”
AbortionHurts: Let’s just hope this “Buffed RN”, who thinks a four week old baby’s value is “EXACTLY ZERO”, isn’t working anywhere near the neonatal wing or pediatrician’s office. BTW, regarding the lake of fire, be sure to send postcards!
Where, pray tell, did I say that a I believe a 4-week-old baby’s value to be “EXACTLY ZERO”?
Curious, I looked up Leviticus 27:1-8, which following your “logic” actually sets the value of women at only a fraction of men, regardless of age, but you must have missed that part when selecting your supportive references.
When have I ever disputed that the bible denigrates and subjugates women? The issue in question is the worth of zygotes, embryos, and fetuses.
Actually, no value at all is mentioned for persons younger than one month old, which obviously does not mean a newborn’s value is “EXACTLY ZERO” as you mistakenly surmise, but simply no tithe was expected to be paid. If this is the best you can do to twist God’s Word into supporting a woman’s right to kill her own child, you failed foolishly. Based on your erroneous post, who is actually “adding to the Bible or putting words in God’s mouth”?
First, these values weren’t a tithe on all persons but a fee to be paid when making a special vow to dedicate persons to god. You’re right, it doesn’t specifically state that persons under 4 weeks of age have no equivalent monetary value. An oversight, perhaps?
If you insist on attempting to defend abortion with Scripture, then “bring it on”.
Oh, good, a challenge! This is Patricia’s blog and she has asked that we take this biblical duel elsewhere, so I have done that. I’ll begin with Is God Pro-Life?
Ya know, I live a decent life. I have my own business, I can pay my bills on time most of the time, got great friends, great cats and dogs, and a great partner.
I don’t dwell on the abortion issue- but recalling it is also not a painful issue for me because I know my choice was the right one for me. I just hate how people assume all of us to be these damaged human beings. Many of us are not.
Am I truely happy?
I am not happy that I have a badly damaged spine, I am not happy that my reproductive organs have caused me intense pain since I was 14, I am not happy that my friend dropped dead at work last week.
But do I feel any regret about the abortion I had? No. THAT I am happy about. If the choice to abort hadn’t been there I would have committed suicide. So yeah, I AM ‘truely happy’ about the abortion.
But I daresay someone will attempt some armchair psychology now and tell me I am in ‘denial’.
Sorry about your friend, Watcher. That`s awful.
Ruthied, you have done an impressive job outlining your opinion. However, you failed to find anything in the Bible which supports a woman’s “right” to kill her own child, which was the assignment.
That said, I do find your essay interesting, challenging, and thought-provoking. If permitted, I plan to address your writings point, by point, on your LJ site when I get a chance.
Watcher, I too am sorry about your friend (I attended a neighbor’s funeral today)and I wasn’t aware of your many painful health challenges. Honestly, I can understand a sense of temporary “relief” from “terminating” an unplanned pregnancy under the serious and painful health conditions you describe, but “truly happy” about killing my own child remains unimaginable, irregardless of the circumstances.
“Yet, to receive Christ’s forgiveness, we must through faith, come to Him with contrite and repentant hearts, which is directly contrary to the “I’m NOT Sorry” mantra.”
You could have chosen to give an innocent baby the chance to be born (and grow up to compose symphonies, cure cancer, give innocent babies a chance to live, etc.) 9 months after you reached menarche. You could have chosen to give another innocent baby that chance within a year after doing that, and so on. Meanwhile you give the impression that out of the many such chances you chose to deny, you remain completely uncontrite and unrepentant about all but one of them…
Ruthied, you have done an impressive job outlining your opinion. However, you failed to find anything in the Bible which supports a woman’s “right” to kill her own child, which was the assignment.
Just as you and your ilk have failed to find anything in the bible which supports your anti-abortion position. Nice try, though.
What I have done is thoroughly refuted the lie that the christian deity is pro-life.
Ummm, Ruthied, don’t fool yourself with such arrogance. Go take a look at your LJ site where I have begun to fully and politely explain your errors, but there are soooo many, it will take me awhile. I only had time to discuss two references tonight, but I’ll cover them all, unless you get in a huff and delete my comments, choosing to continue lying to yourself, which would be unfortunate because INS readers deserve to know the truth.
Sorry to hear about your friend, Watcher:(
I live a decent life. Yes, I am almost constantly sick which brings me in financial problems quite a lot but you know what? I have friends and family, I got cats I meet that says hello to me and I got my books. My life is happy for all those reasons. I have moral and ethics but I prefer to give others the choice to decide.
I think it’s sweet that some wants to save/convert us heathens but it just wont work with me. The buggers never give up with me*laugh*
“Ummm, Ruthied, don’t fool yourself with such arrogance. Go take a look at your LJ site where I have begun to fully and politely explain your errors, but there are soooo many, it will take me awhile. I only had time to discuss two references tonight, but I’ll cover them all, unless you get in a huff and delete my comments, choosing to continue lying to yourself, which would be unfortunate because INS readers deserve to know the truth.”
It’s not THE truth. It’s YOUR truth which is something else completely. You have not come with any good evidence of your claims. So the truth is more that you can’t accept others who disagree with you. We are 100% capable of reading and researching facts and we even read both sides. You however never really did. It’s a shame but we know that’s the way you are. You try force feed us with your ‘truth’ but hissy fits like a child when we disagree. Actually you amuse most of us.
Apparently, AH, possessing reading comprehension and logical deduction skills is arrogant and erroneous if one applies them to scripture according to you and your ilk. We’re supposed to take your word that god is, indeed, pro-life, just, and loving, despite all evidence (the bible, the only so-called “word of god” we’ve got) to the contrary.
Sorry, AH, no dice. Your petulant, sadistic, misogynistic, psychopath of a god isn’t a person I would want anywhere near me or mine (or anyone else, even people I personally dislike, for that matter), so why would ever would I invite it into my heart and pay homage to it? It’s worthy only of my contempt, thank you very much.
I’m not going to delete your comments, because they simply prove my point about the faith-addled and the incomprehensible mental gymnastics that allow them to continue believing that their deity holds human life in such great sanctity, especially fetal life, despite all evidence to the contrary (ordering/carrying out the slaughter of masses of pregnant women, slaughtering children for teasing a prophet, deliberately hardening Pharaoh’s heart so to subsequently slaughter all the first-born of Egypt in one night, slaughtering Job’s family to test his loyalty, etc., ad nauseum). It would be quite humorous, really, if you misguided zealots weren’t trying to force the rest of us to adhere to your disgusting beliefs.
You are the one who is lying to herself, as well as to everyone else. I am quite willing to face the truth. I even admit when I’m wrong, which is something I’ve yet to see either you or View do at all. That you then call me arrogant had me laughing out loud.
You know what, AH and View? Your pro-life utopia exists in El Salvador, so why don’t you get yourselves over there to check it out first-hand?
Ruthied, I have complimented you on your essay, which does a very good job presenting your view. If my assertions are so easily refuted, why haven’t you done so? Where is all this “evidence to the contrary” that you keep promising to enlighten us with? I’ve only just begun to address your LJ site and I’m eager to read your responses, for differences of opinion do not bother me at all. Ruth, you have the God-given gift of intelligence and I’m sure your arguments will be a challenge.
To both Ruthied and Librarian Fox, if somehow it was ever unclear, I am NOT forcing anything on anyone. Ruth invited my response on her LJ site and I’m politely taking her up on that offer. In the first paragraph, I actually entertain the thought that God is pro-”choice”, in that He gives each one of us the daily opportunity to CHOOSE between good and evil, between giving life or killing the most vulnerable among us, the choice to treat each other with respect or make personal attacks while ignoring the issues before us. Which will you choose to do today? May the Peace of Christ be with you.
I already refuted your assertions in the essay, so why do I need to say any more? You either haven’t read the passages I cited or you put on your faith blinders to allow you to ignore the fact that god either ordered, condoned, or directly committed the mass and singular murders I listed. Nice try, though.
I haven’t ever claimed that god is pro-choice. That is as absurd as the assertion that he is pro-life. I get as exasperated when pro-choice christians claim that the bible’s silence on the act of abortion means it is neutral or pro-choice regarding abortion as when pro-life christians claim that god is pro-life and anti-abortion. The bible regards women as sub-human, vacuous chattel at best, as well as vicious vamps (Esther, Jael) whose actions are condoned only when it suits god’s murderous purposes, who have no right to decide the course of their own lives nor to admonish men for breaking god’s laws (Moses sister, Miriam and David’s wife, Michal). We do know that it is okay for men to force abortion, as well as gestation and birth, upon women in the misogynist fairy tale that is the bible.
Ruthied, there you go again, making wild, unsubstantiated and erroneous claims. Then when challenged, you are unwilling (or more likely, unable) to respond in defense of yourself. You are quickly losing credibility. Therefore, I don’t think we should keep absorbing Patricia’s blog with this nonsense. See you over at LJ if you care to ever respond.
To say God regards women as “sub-human” is absolutely ridiculous. Despite the cultural conditions of over two thousand years ago, there are tremendous accounts of powerful women in the Bible. I’m still working on dispelling the many, many misconceptions of your first post, but if you want, we can have a LJ Bible Study of “God- the first Feminist!” as well. I’d love to debate that with you!!!! Are you up for the challenge, Ruth? I’m not computer savy, so I’d have to rely on you to set up the LJ forum, but we’d have fun. What do you say?
To both Ruthied and Librarian Fox, if somehow it was ever unclear, I am NOT forcing anything on anyone.
When I talk about forcing in terms of you forced-birthers, I am talking about your drive to outlaw abortion based on your beliefs, which amount to fetus > woman, as well as fetus > any other actual, born person, since no born person has the right to commandeer another’s body against the body owner’s will. This right to control one’s body holds true even after one dies, but forced-birthers seek only to deny this fundamental right to control one’s body to pregnant women and only pregnant women. If you aren’t trying to outlaw abortion, then I apologize. You are certainly welcome to attempt to browbeat women into gestating unwanted embryos, but expect us to call you to the carpet for the lies you tell during your attempts.
My next LJ post will be about treatment of women in the bible, so we can debate then. In the meantime, I have boards to study for and a relocation to effect, so it will be a while. If you come up with something in the meantime, you are welcome to create a free LJ account, as I have, and post your essay.
“God- the first Feminist!” That’s the best laugh I’ve had all day! Thank you, AH. :)
“‘God- the first Feminist!’ That’s the best laugh I’ve had all day!”
That depends on which religion and denomination you’re talking about, right? It reminds me of the other day when I saw a book of essays about being a Muslim young woman and a book about being a Wiccan young man on the same shelf in the new-nonfiction-books section of the library.
Ruthied, I keep having to correct your “misunderstandings” about me, though if you have read my posts, I have been consistent and clear. I have NEVER indicated a “drive to outlaw abortion”. I repeat, so that there is no ambiguity, I am Christian, and I’m pro-life, but do not actively work to make abortion illegal. Instead, I spend three mornings a week at the local abortion clinics, offering women anything they might need so that they are better able to CHOOSE life, thus working personally and directly with my own time, energy, and pocketbook to reduce the demand for abortion. I’ve likened abortion to an animal caught in a trap, desperate to be free and has no other alternative but to painfully gnaw its own leg off to escape. I’m just trying to give women the resources so she has more CHOICES than killing her own child. There is no judgement made, loving her on the way in for her abortion and still there in support two hours later as she leaves the clinic walking-wounded. Women deserve better than abortion, wouldn’t you agree? Or, are you in reality not really pro-”choice” but in actuality only pro-ABORTION?
Your apology is accepted, but please refrain from further malicious falsehoods, or as you say “expect [me] to call you on the carpet for the lies you tell during your attempts”.
I’m glad I brought a chuckle to your day, Ruth. I told you this would be fun! I like that title too, surely to provoke a reaction from all sides! Despite your preconceived notions about me, I’m not a mean person, Ruth. I enjoy people of ALL backgrounds, beliefs, and opinions, finding our differences fascinating.
I hope you do well on your board exams and post when you can. God Bless.
Honestly, I can understand a sense of temporary “relief” from “terminating” an unplanned pregnancy under the serious and painful health conditions you describe, but “truly happy” about killing my own child remains unimaginable, irregardless of the circumstances.
What child? That’s one thing you jsut don’t get AH – I know and always knew that it wasn’t a child. You patronisingly claim that we must really deep down one day be sorry because we’ve killed a child and we must feel bad about it but we know embryos aren’t kids. How can we be sorry for killing a zef anymore than we can be sorry for killing a carrot or bug?
I’ve never felt a carrot or a bug kick with human life inside my body, nor had a carrot or bug give me a hug and call me Mommy. It is sad you don’t know the difference. A ‘zef’ is a child, just a very little one that is legal to kill. How does this ‘zef’ that travels down an 8 inch birth canal all of a sudden become a much loved premie, or does that now-born baby remain a carrot/bug in your estimation? Would you “feel bad” about intentionally killing your premature baby…’zef’?
“I’ve never felt a carrot or a bug kick with human life inside my body, nor had a carrot or bug give me a hug and call me Mommy.”
You’ve felt a single fertilized cell (the kind some people try to protect by condemning birth control pills) kick inside you, hug you, and call you Mommy?
Women deserve better than abortion, wouldn’t you agree?
No, I don’t agree. That’s like saying “women deserve better than comprehensive healthcare” or “women deserve better than civil rights.” It simply doesn’t compute in any humane or logical sense.
Jivin J.,
I just wanted to say that I am impressed with the way you are handling this debate with A View from the Sidewalks on the birth control pill. You are informed and coherent on this issue.
Are you 26 yet?
A View from the Sidewalks,
I just wanted to make a couple of comments on your postion when it comes to how the birth control pill “messes” with normal function of the reproductive organs, or “if it aint broke, why fix it?”
I take the pill because for some bizarre reason, it helps control my severe encopresis. There are many other, much more effective ways to cure it, but none have worked for me, and were so very painful and degrading that living the rest of my life in the suffering state I was in could not be worse. If I had the choice, I would have a permanent colostomy.
Also, as a sexually androgynous woman, who wants to be more like a man, even though my reproductive organs function normally, to me, the fact that I have them and perform these functions is entirely broke and needs to be fixed.
You are welcome not to use the pill, but I do not understand why you insist that women not “mess themselves up in this way, because what we are doing without the pill is “natural.” I am not saying these are your exact words, but that seems to be the position.
And in line with Patricia’s post, I am glad I was born, because, in many ways, I have a great life. And I have alright parents, even though my relationship with my mother is rather strained. I am an Asperger’s female-male brain in a woman’s body, and my parents never cared. I especially have a close relationship with my father. I struggle much in day-to-day life, and he does not hesitate to give me a napkin to wipe my face, or tell me that he knows I did my best. Now, he is human, and he does make mistakes, some of which will haunt me forever.
Even my mother has had shinig moments of closeness with me. I had to travel to Boston several times to see a specialist when I was 13 years old, for fear that I had ovarian cancer. Fortunately, it was just a stubborn cyst, but I digress. One day, we walk into the radiology unit of the New England Medical Center, and into an ultrasoubd room with a very soothing night-themed wallpaper border, and as I was being pressed on, my mother would gently stroke my hair while I fought back tears as a stranger poked and prodded me.
This period carried with it many clinic visits, treatments, six hospital visits, four several hours out of state, and one surgery.
I have a lot of great plans for the future, one of which is being an transgender and child advocate, and a speaker for those who have handicaps such as mine, as well as being a novelist and musician. I wanted to do some science, so I am thinking also of being a psych RN, maybe with children. I like children a lot.
But none of this would have been true if my parents had not tried for me, planned for me, wanted me. Instead, I probably would have been a sick and mentally handicapped girl in some God-forsaken hole run by sadists, because I have autism. Had I not been planned, my parents would not have been able to deal with me, and no one else would have wanted to.
I guess the point of this is to say that you may bring the next Mozart into the world. Or you could bring in the next Boston Strangler. And sometimes, the odds are such that it really is not socially responsible to take chances.
Malafides, thank you for sharing your story. You write very well and I look forward to one day hearing you speak. :)
It pains me that transgendered, gay and lesbian people are so vilified in this society, especially by those who call themselves “loving Christians” (Catholics, other fundies). I’m glad I live in Northern Calfornia, where generally people are accepting toward alternate lifestyles and are generally intolerant of those who spread hatred and vitriol against those who don’t fall into their narrowly-defined gender roles.
Many Native American tribes were not only accepting of but provided positions of honor for those who didn’t fit into gender norms. The Plains Indians had a particularly beautiful way of honoring those “two-spirits.” I highly recommend taking a Native American Art & Culture course if you want to know more about it.
It pains me that transgendered, gay and lesbian people are so vilified in this society, especially by those who call themselves “loving Christians” (Catholics, other fundies). OK I’m getting off the abortion topic here. I agree with you, ruthied. I have quite a few gay friends through work, volunteering and my sports league. They are very fine folks and my life is enriched because I know them. It is truly disgusting that the fundies yell their big fat yaps off about how wrong the alternative lifestyles are…they cannot see how evil their doings are…in condemning & judging others who are different. Perfect example is that mental case pastor and his very few followers from Kansas that go around screaming atrocities at funerals of our military people who have died in Iraq. Piece of shit.
Oh yeah and I just loved the way AH was proselytizing on the INS blog…trying to “reach” the webmaster w/ all her icky/gooey/nicey language. Hah hah hah. Webmaster I give you a high-five for being so nice in response. AH’s “gotta save the INS webmaster post” was the INS highlight of the week for me; a wee bit different from her other more judgmental/condescending posts. Good enough to pop the top off a cold Sam Adams. Ah…….
Oh yeah and I just loved the way AH was proselytizing on the INS blog…trying to “reach” the webmaster w/ all her icky/gooey/nicey language.
Yyyyeeaahh, why would we want the love of a sadistic, misogynistic psychopath? I just want it and its fan club to leave me the hell alone!
Good enough to pop the top off a cold Sam Adams. Ah…….
Yesterday, I broke the top two cardinal rules of bicycling (eyes forward, head up) and am now a sore, scabby, road-rashed mess. The good thing is that even after I bit it, I still managed to complete my task, which was to get to the convenience store to buy eggs and 2 22-oz bottles of Deschutes Brewery’s Hop Henge India Pale Ale. Yummy goodness and analgesia all in one. And this morning, I made Eggs Bernaise…Double yummy!
Gratis, Ruthied, and salvete to the members of this blog. I think I shall stay and have quite a happy stay here. Nunc sum laeta.
Translation, please. :D
Ruthied,
Ouch! Hope you are feeling better and that your road rash is healing well. I am going in on Wed. for an MRI on both knees…I have sports injuries, arthritis, and am an old fart to say the least :) Glad that you found some relief in that pale ale; yes indeed! A well-brewed beer is worth its weight in gold as far as injuries are concerned. Woohoo. Oh and the eggs sounded so good I made some quiche!
“why would we want the love of a sadistic, misogynistic psychopath?” Very well stated. I try to be a spiritual person…I do believe in a higher power but so what. It seems to me that the fundies and extremists definitely paint exactly that picture of their God and their Christ…as absolute psychopaths. The real Christ (or someone else in other faiths) does not give a hoot about who is straight, gay, bisexual, who’s had abortions, who hasn’t had them, who is Jewish, who is agnostic, who is atheist…a higher power full of light and love does not discriminate. Ya can’t love some folks and not others. Duh……………………….
Ruthied,
Gratis is Latin for thanks, and salvete is the group greeting literally meaning “Be strong” or “Be well.” If only addressing one person, it is salve.
Skate17,
I try to be a spiritual person…I do believe in a higher power but so what.
Do you consider yourself to be Unitarian (which sounds like a Christian sect but is not?)
And by the way, you don’t sound like an old fart in your posts at all. You sound quite youthful, especially your name, by which I mean full of life.
Patricia,
I hope your son is well. Salve to him, too.
And just because we are in rant mode-correct me if I am wrong-but ovulation disgusts me, and if I had the option, I would have no uterus or ovaries at all! After all, I never plan to use them. I hate to admit it, but my being responsible for someone completely dependent on me is a child abuse report waiting to be written, so no thank you. I am really not mentally stable enough to do that job, and I have other plans I like better anyway.
ml,
My faith is eastern Christianity (Greek, Russian Orthodox, etc.) but I also attend services/classes/etc. when I can at a church of Religious Science – which people call “new age” or “new thought”. I’ve been gaining more knowledge and insight at the new thought church with regards to my spiritual path than at the eastern church, yet at the eastern church I appreciate the beautiful traditions, the Liturgy and chants and some of the prayers. Both work for me; I have found a balance. I’ll stop typing now on the faith/religion thing…I’m sure the webmaster will appreciate it as this is supposed to be an INS/pro-choice discussion :)
Thank you for the compliment. I should not refer to myself as being an old fart although physically I’m getting close. Nowadays I hear…”40 is the new 20; 50 is the new 30″, etc. I like to think along those lines…until my body tells me I can’t; hah!
I understand totally what you are saying about not being mentally stable enough to do the job (of parent). I think that you are an honest, smart and a selfless person to have that understanding about yourself. Good job! Throughout my adulthood I have always known that I would not and could not have been a good parent based on a number of issues/problems. Now that I have some of my shit together…I am looking into mentoring programs (like Big Sister, etc.) in my city. I would enjoy working with kids as my time permits.
Lucius,
I’ve actually been 26 for longer than a year. I’m 27.
Ah, silly me.:) Anyway, if View eveer comes back, keep at it!:)
ml,
Are you kidding? View will be back.
Saturday night I attended my sister in law’s daughter’s bat mitzvah. WOW! Fantastic. As an Orthodox Christian I was humbled and amazed at the beauty of the Jewish worship ceremony. God was with us tonight. Remember my friends and foes…we live on this planet together. Get used to it.
You’re right. The world would have kept turning without you. The world’s been going on just fine without the millions of fetuses who have been aborted pre- and post-Roe. The world has also been going on without the millions of people around the world who were killed during World War I and World War II. But that’s not really the point, is it? You wouldn’t be here. You wouldn’t be married or writing this blog or dedicating your life to pro-choice causes. And maybe that’s okay with you, but we’ll never know if that’s okay with the million children aborted every year because they’re dead. And if you had been aborted, we wouldn’t know if you were okay with that decision, either. The very fact that you’re alive today is how you’ve reached the conclusion that you have every right to reach – you don’t feel any sort of gratitude that your mother didn’t abort you and you think she had the right to terminate you if she had wanted to do so. Great, now that we know what you think, how about you not decide for other people who weren’t terminated and who were terminated how they should feel (or would have felt)? By the way, you’ve never really said why you don’t feel upset that you were almost aborted. If you’re not suicidal and you’re happy that you’re alive, you should probably feel a little good that your mother didn’t choose to end your life. I’d hope, anyway. The fact that you keep reciting a tired old pro-choice mantra–”it was HER choice–shows me that you’re very wrapped up in your ideological bias, so much so that you can’t even appreciate for a single second that you might not be here had your mother decided otherwise. I’m not saying you should be “grateful” or thankful every day of your life that you’re alive. I’m also not saying that your mother’s brief flirtation with aborting you should be treated as almost dying in a car accident or a plane crash. No, no – I’m just saying that it’s a little odd that you dismiss the possibility of your termination as a fetus as merely a choice of hers rather what it really is – your life or death.
And what if my mother had decided to give a blowjob that night! OMG I WOULDN’T EXIST!!!
Sheesh, get over yourself. And learn what paragraphs are.
Salve, Malafides,
Do not short change your mental stability. I find your posts to be informative, and well researched. You have a solid grasp on the issues you write about. I find them enlightening, and believe you have an above average of intelligence. You certainly do not write without a basis of research to back your arguements and points.
Whatdahey