So I’m checking up on things INS this morning. Ah, new guestbook entry. Let’s see who has what to say. A quote from a “pro-life feminist” bewailing abortion. Nothing too groundshaking. However the next quote from another “pro-life feminist,” someone named Daphne de Jong, had me groaning:
“If women must submit to abortion to preserve their lifestyle or career, their economic social status, they are pandering to a system devised and run by men for male convenience. Of all things which are done to women to fit them into a society dominated by men, abortion is the most violent invasion of their physical and psychic integrity.”
I’m surprised she didn’t spell women as wymyn.
I consider myself a feminist in the sense that I believe women should have equal rights and opportunities. I am not a feminist in the sense that I believe that I should be given preferential treatment or opportunities because I own a vagina. I’m well acquainted with several members of the Richmond chapter of NOW here since they work pretty closely with pro-choice organizations, but I always demur when they ask me to join. For every feminist who is genuinely trying to advance women’s rights and causes, there seems to be five others who seem to think that feminism is running around with unshaven legs and Birkenstocks bleating about how men are evil. In one particular instance at a pro-choice event, I was cornered by a young feminist who proceeded to tell me that I had no credibility as a pro-choice advocate … because I’d taken my husband’s last name when I got married. It took me ten minutes to get my laughter under control.
I have always wondered why the antis seem to have this idea that abortion is compulsory, or that women are forced to make that decision. There have ALWAYS been options. If a woman chooses one option over another, how does that invalidate the other options? Then again, if you read the anti story sites, no woman ever states that it was solely her decision. The abortion was done to please the husband/boyfriend (who usually ended up leaving anyway) or the parents who wouldn’t pay for school or didn’t want a grandchild … “someone ELSE wanted it, not MEEE! I’m a GOOD girl! I WANT to have babies!”
There are many feminists who treat pregnancy as their way of trumping THE MAN. “Look upon me and despair, puny male, for I can bring forth LIFE!” “Pro-life feminists” are a particularly virulent strain. In their reasoning, every woman wants nothing more than to bring forth children, and damn the man who makes her choose otherwise. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that some women don’t want to be pregnant, whether it’s at that particular time or just never in general. They are the ones “pandering to the system.”
And thanks to this, I’ll have Helen Reddy’s “I Am Woman” running through my head the rest of the day. Gah.
To me, pro-life feminism is a contradiction in terms.
Feminism is about each woman being able to choose for herself what she wants to do with her life. Pro-life is about telling every woman what she has to do with her life.
Therefore the two are contradictory. I have left so-called ‘feminism’ boards in abject disgust after being told that I am not a feminist because I prefer to work and have a career rather than have spawn. Apparently this did not make me a ‘true female’ as I was not interested in reproducing.
However, I think it makes me a true feminist because I chose for myself the life I wanted, not some group of unwashed fanatical breeders.
Pro-life “feminism” is nothing but essentialist nonsense.
Let them have their babies –but why on earth would they want to make other women have babies? You know… you can take that guestbook entry and substitute just a few words like this, and it works really well:
“If women must submit to CHILDBIRTH to preserve their lifestyle or career, their economic social status, they are pandering to a system devised and run by men for male convenience. Of all things which are done to women to fit them into a society dominated by men, FORCED CHILDBIRTH is the most violent invasion of their physical and psychic integrity.”
To continue Lisa’s great idea, here’s another anti-choice quote re-written:
“Forced breeding is one result of the historic and deep exploitation of, and discrimination against, the female…. [W]hen this exploitation and discrimination end, the practice of forced breeding will also end…. It is a strange irony that other, anti-choice feminists embrace forced breeding and define it as a fundamental feminist truth instead of seeing it as a fundamental and devastating exploitation. Such a feminist embraces and cooperates in her own oppression. Forced breeding, in the final analysis, works to the advantage of the exploitative male, not for the female…. Forced breeding is a male domination fantasy come true.”
In the early days of INS, the Ms. magazine forum linked to it. I went to check it out and found a most ugly flamewar about who was the “better” feminist. Too much drama for me.
Alot of the backlash against abortion, from old-school feminists like Germaine Greer, came from the way abortion was misused afer it was legalized –
“The abortion was done to please the husband/boyfriend (who usually ended up leaving anyway) or the parents who wouldn’t pay for school or didn’t want a grandchild.” Those sound a lot like Greer`s words — “Too many women are forced to abort by poverty, by their menfolk, by their parents. Poverty has many faces; it may be the poverty of the young, the unmarried, the student, the unemployed, the female or a combination of these.”
But you don`t have to be pro-life to be against COERCED abortion. This is where the pro-life feminists lose me. I do not a see a contradiction in supporting a woman`s right to have a baby if she wants, or NOT to have a baby.
and morgan – that one works really well!!!
“I am not a feminist in the sense that I believe that I should be given preferential treatment or opportunities because I own a vagina.” – I have worked in a male-dominated profession for an engineering company; it was quite difficult – always felt that no matter how hard I worked I could never be on equal footing w/ the men in the office. There was no opportunity for advancement and I became tired of listening to sexual jokes so I left and went to work for a woman-owned company. Much better environment. I’m not saying we should have preferential treatment but at the same time how do we get more women working in male-dominated professions? We still need to increase our numbers and get our pay rates on more equal status with men.
The term “feminist” is defined in many convoluted (sp?) ways. It can be applied to people like those hairy-legged creatures all the way to a stay-at-home soccer-Mom who has a home business. Then the conservative camp will brand anyone a feminist who doesn’t behave like a sheep (baah!). My sponsor at my church, a well-known feminist in church circles, has been called a “femi-nazi” and a “witch” by some clergy because she’s working to increased leadership roles for women.
Regardless of how feminist are defined – I was never more confused about it than when I read the term “pro-life feminist”? They’ve gotta be kidding!! It’s just another ploy by the anti’s to pretend they support feminism. Give me a break!
I’m not saying we should have preferential treatment but at the same time how do we get more women working in male-dominated professions?
Women, quite frankly, need to grow thicker skins. The schoolkid behavior of knowing who to pick on never goes away as we grow older–it just gets more sophisticated. If we act like fading flowers every time a guy tells an off-color joke or makes a remark, guess what they’re going to do? I have worked in male-dominated offices most of my career, but since I’m practically impossible to offend a lot of stuff that would have other women running to HR screaming about harassment usually makes me laugh. If they know it doesn’t bother you, they’ll stop doing it. One of my favorite stories about something like this comes from a book by chef Anthony Bourdain, who talks about one of his female line chefs having her station decorated with some particularly filthy porn shortly after she started working at his restaurant. When she walked past the guy that did it, she said casually, “Glad to see that you brought in some family pictures, Jose. Your mom looks good for her age.”
Well said Webmaster.
I work in IT. It’s a very male-dominated environment, but I get treated just as seriously as the men I manage.
If a woman has no interest in IT then I won’t hire her – despite how much HR tell me to ‘increase the percentage of females’. I hire people based on their ability to do the job, not because of their genitalia.
Also, yes, it’s a rude crude environment. Get over it, not every office can be like a frikkin tea party. I would have very little respect for any member of my staff who ran to HR complaining of harrassment because we were telling fart jokes again.
Given the choice between changing an entire working environment and changing one person I think the onus is on the person, not the company. I really REALLY believe the women who go round complaining about ‘discrimination’ and ‘harrassment’ to HR because of a few boob jokes make it a damn sight harder for those women who actually work in those areas to get taken seriously.
Fartknocker.
There is no such thing as anti-choice feminism. Always when I need a good laugh I go to the “feminists” for life´s website and read their tagline “every woman who experiences an unplanned pregnancy also deserves unplanned joy. Honestly what´s next? Feminists for rape? You know, every woman who experiences an unplanned pregnancy also deserves an unplanned orgasm?
You know, forcing a woman to carry a child for nine month is as bad (or personally I would say worse)as forcing her to have a dick inside her for what? nine seconds?
I meant every woman who experiences an unplanned INTERCOURSE also deserves an unplanned orgams. Ok, so who´s with me? Feminists for rape, come on! You know every woman wants to fuck all the time, in all places with anyone, it is the EVIL MEN who tells them to do otherwise…
I already have a thick skin and there’s noting to “get over”; I opted to search for another job because I didn’t like my current one. As for the sexual jokes – it didn’t matter that I was there and they knew it didn’t bother me personally. They were just being boys (some men don’t really grow up); it would get out of control sometimes but I would counter with a few of my own sexual jokes. The guys thought it was all really funny. Nothing changed other than at the end it started to turn into sexual haraassment and that’s when I was hired elsewhere. There’s a difference between a whiner and someone who stands up for what is right. If you all like to work at a place where women are constantly brunt of stupid, demeaning jokes then go for it.
I would hate to be in a work environment such as a “tea party”; how boring. I play both coed and women’s hockey; that ain’t no tea party either. The locker room banter is the best in the land.
My point in my post was that women deserve equal treatment and equal pay – and respect in the workplace. Sexual jokes can be OK and funny but it can go way too far and it’s been my experience that they don’t stop if they know you are not bothered by them. They keep it up because they can get away with it, something they can’t do elsewhere, and it’s rewarding and fun for them. A fair number of women are still sexually harassed and it is almost impossible to have a sucessful law suit in many states; regardless it is a long and painful process to go through.
My choice to find another job was because I didn’t want to be in that environment anymore; grew tired of it although I never took any of it personally and actually the whole thing was a very cool learning experience.
I`ve put up with some really awful work enviroments just because I liked the actual job — I`m a journalist, and newsrooms are full of all kinds of people behaving badly.
The reason I ultimately left my last job was not because of any of the sexist comments — I got to the point where I was unharrassable, I think. It was because I looked around and saw only “the boys” getting promoted by the other boys, while the often more qualified women still toiled away under them.
Sometimes, you have to move out to move up.
There’s a difference between just normal crudity and outright harrassment.
Outright harrassment I have seen occur and seen men fired for it – things like posting messages on the company email system about how good such and such a woman would be in bed – calling her outright a slut, that kind of thing. I won’t tolerate that and nor should anyone.
Conversely I’ve also had a woman employee fired because she kept harrassing my male technicians – grabbing their asses, making comments about how she was shagging them etc. I won’t stand for that either.
Yes, women should be treated like men in the workplace – same pay for doing the same job with the same effort. I am a bit defensive because I’ve only recently sorted out a ‘discrimination’ claim where I hadn’t given a female member of my staff the same raise I’d given a male member of staff.
The reason being, he’d been doing great work all year and she’d been on 1 year’s maternity leave and so hadn’t done ANY work. She lost her discrimination claim but I certainly am pissed off that she even tried such grabby ‘give me money because I’m female and have had babies!’ crap.
Pregnancy is a normal, natural condition, that women voluntarily choose. Sometimes they develop problems related to the pregnancy or complications from the delivery, which need to be dealt with, like any other medical problems — no more, no less. That`s why companies have maternity leave and sick leave policies.
I had a similar experience, when I was the manager of a woman pregnant with twins. She had very bad morning sickness and was having a hard time. While I was certainly sympathetic about her medical condition, she was coming in late, leaving early, calling in sick and simply not getting her work done, which made it tough on the rest of the team. When I told her she needed to think about taking a medical leave of absence, she became enraged, and said, “As a fellow mother, I expect you to be more understanding!” She filed a formal complaint about me — which went nowhere, because my own bosses supported me. She ended up quitting. I was thoroughly pissed off at her — by making a big case herself, demanding that her pregnancy entitled her to special treatment beyond normal medical policies, she got everyone defensive and made it difficult for all the other pregnant women who came after her.
And one of them was me — a few years after she quit, I got the only bad performance review of my life, the year I had a baby. I worked right up to the birth and came back to work right when I said I would, but my manager said I fell behind during my “vacation” — his term for my maternity leave. I realized that whining wasn`t going to change his attitude, so I didn`t complain — I was not going to let HIS attitude problem become MY problem. Instead, I kept my mouth shut, worked even harder, and when I finally quit for a better job the following year, it was gratifying to hear the clueless boss beg me to stay.
I don’t think anyone’s in a position to decide what another person should/shouldn’t be offended by. Each employee is responsible for making it clear to their supervisor and co-workers that they are uncomfortable with certain behaviors/comments. If the environment changes, then everyone’s happy. If not, then it’s time for the employee to look for a different work environment. If you’re good at what you do, any manager with a brain in his head will regret losing you because he failed to get your co-workers to exercise a little discretion.
I just want to point out that Ged did NOT flame this post — he picked several other ones instead. DO you think he saw the title, “Why Some Feminists Piss Me Off ,” and perhaps wondered if we were slowly coming around to his side???
I think that this is a larger, more complex issue than many people realize. Feminism is a “blanket” term which is interpreted in so many different ways that it’s hard to actually say, “I’m a feminist” without defining the exact terms of your particular interpretation of the word “feminist.”
I am a feminist. I was also a stay-at-home mum in my son’s younger years. I’m also a proudly married “Mrs” in my private life and a non-descript “Ms.” in my public life. I’m a lawyer, and enjoy the distinction of being not only the one and only female lawyer in my firm, but the only female lawyer within a 45 minute driving radius of my small city.
To say that women are “forced” into having abortions because of the patriarchal social and economic structures that exist is a cop out. It’s too easy. That kind of bullshit analysis wouldn’t even get you a “B” on a university mid-term paper. Yes, it’s a generally well-known fact that women face different challenges in the workforce than their male counterparts. It’s certainly true of the legal profession – and it’s one reason that my husband and I decided to “close down shop” after having our son. Was my abortion in part due to my professional life and it’s rigorous demands? Yes. In part. There were also many other reasons, many other factors. Mainly, we just plain did not want to have another kid. I can, and have, absolutely taken responsibility for that decision and I don’t feel the need to lay the blame on a profession that imposes high demands for billable hours and makes it challenging for a woman to maintain a busy practice and spend an abundant amount of leisure time with her children. “Oh…poor me! If only I didn’t work in such a facist, patriarchal regime! If only there were some way to accomodate my uterus and my desire to be a lawyer! Oh for shame!”
Oh please.
We all make choices and we all need to be big enough to take responsibility for them. Blaming “the man” and making him (or the male dominated system) the controlling factor for a woman exercising control over her own reproduction is like taking two steps backwards. Either you are a feminist (and in that sense hold women to account for their own decisions and the exercising of their own rights and responsibilities) or your aren’t (and you go back to handing all of the control over to men), but you can’t have it both ways. You can’t suck and blow at the same time.
He only cares about the unborn. Women rank way below that in his view.
Women are great and equal to the unborn human and equal to men and motherhood is the most important job that exists.
http://www.abortionismurder.co.uk
and motherhood is the most important job that exists.
my ovaries are laughing at you.
I do not ever want to be a mother so does that mean I have to be abstinent for the rest of my life? Ha, I don’t think so!
You’re getting very boring, Ged. Come up with some new insults.